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/cel/ - Retro Anime / Manga

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DAY 4(CHAN'T)

Forgive me father,

for I have synth'd.


ALTS WONALTS WONALTS WONALTS WONALTS WON
Take a breather...

Catalog

File: 1728235892143.jpg(202.03 KB, 1400x1400, 1682780360142473.jpg)

 No.2813

Cowboy Bebop is boring. Outlaw Star has cute girls, Taoist magic, and intergalactic space temples and better action scenes. Yet we we're deprived of a sequel! Why do people even like Cowboy Bebop so much? Its not even that good! Well okay that's just annoyingly contrarian, its a good show just not as great at the hype train makes it out to be.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes is also overrated. The battle scenes are absurd. How can one man command so many vessels? It makes no sense. The average admiral can't even command one battle group properly but in LOTGH they can command hundreds of ships at once? No communications breakdown? Its like playing a crappy Paradox strategy game, having billion units, and realizing your brain doesn't have the mental processing power to manage them all but somehow they can do it. The story is Star Wars level Evil Nazi Coded Empire vs Space America. Its like choosing between slitting your throat or jumping into a fire.

Serial Experiments Lain is a great show but why isn't there more love for Texhnolyze?

Evengelion is good but overrated. Everybody knows this already. People are just mad at how popular it is.

 No.2814

I love all of the shows you mentioned. Get on my level.

 No.2815

What shows do you like anon?

 No.2816

>>2815
There are only a handful I thought were really great. Angel's Egg, Shojo Tsubaki, and Lain are great anime.. Perfect Blue was very good but the ending was disappointing. Cat Soup and Le Portrait de Petit Cossette are great but not /cel/. Isao Takahata's films were amazing. I can't think of much else.

Animation is an extension of fiction. By the end of the 20th century, traditional narrative structures and themes had been explored to the point of exhaustion. They have been done to death, but not quite, they live on zombie like. The same ground is trodden and re-trodden time and time again. That's why people find Romeo and Juliette boring. Viewing shows is an exercise in frustration as they carry on the same tired and worn fictional themes. Structures that go back decades, even centuries.

The 90s is seen as a golden age, but it was full of stale old fiction and it in turn generated the ossified staleness of anime we have today. Cowboy Bebop is tired and worn and feels soulless and dull. Its a pastiche which fictional elements going back to Japanese period dramas even. Evangelion is just hypocritical, good but so self-indulgent. LOTGH is a Star Wars re-hash and again draws on tired old themes of epic fiction going back centuries. Anime was already exhausted by the 90s and now everything is just a reskin of what was a hit back then. It was an age where the experimentation of the 80s sunk.

I think understand why Miyazaki love/hates anime industry, fandom, and otakus. I disagree but ultimately he is correct.

 No.2817

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>>2816
Nothing new under the sun anon. Your problem with fiction as you've described it has been going on far before not only the end of 20th century anime, but anime itself, and other art forms like film and literature. Every human problem or feeling has been explored a thousands time over already. Then again, maybe that's what you're getting at.

Art's about communication of feeling and ideas that are new to you, or relate to you. It sounds to me like you're voicing your dislike of the 90s but your line of reasoning could really be extended towards disliking any anime ever or maybe any piece of media if it's taken to its logical conclusion.

 No.2818

>>2813
Yes, it's not a problem limited to anime. I'm not just complaining about a lack of originality but that the same elements that make up a story have been explored to the point of being milked dry. I do think its possible to come up with new forms, themes, and elements and to re-work older ones in new ways and explore problems that humans have never faced before e.g. human-computer relationship. Lain is a good example of that. Perfect Blue picks on the same themes but mixes them with the old trope of the struggling artist in a way that's really fresh.

Personally, I don't think art should be about expressing your feelings. That can lead to interpretation being chained to the author and we have to keep deferring to the author to know what something means. Great art isn't about expressing your opinions as an artist, but creating a mirror through which others can explore their own feelings.

But I do think there are times when sending an explicit hamfisted message and expressing your emotions is absolutely justified e.g. Kuroi Ame, Ore wa Mita and Barefoot Gen.

 No.2819

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>>2818
What you've said about art being a mirror to explore your own feelings was essentially what I meant, so we're basically saying the same thing. I was referring to the person engaging with the art, not the artist when I said that. And I don't disagree that new forms or styles are created and as technology advances to new places fresh concepts can be explored.

However, I can't agree with the idea that an anime director for instance doesn't put their own issues or emotions into their art to some degree, andit doesn't have to be as upfront and in your face as evangelion's psychology or existentialism either. Perfect Blue's story in part criticizes idol and celebrity culture likely because Satoshi Kon had personal feelings about how it negatively affected japanese culture, the choice to explore a deteriorating mental state and how it can completely alter the way a story is told could be seen in the same way. Even stylistic choices of a shows editing or character design could be seen as reflective of the artists personality.

Then again, this is an old tired argument of the death of the artist, and whether that's meaningful to even consider when watching something. And it's possible I might be misunderstanding you in some ways. My point really is that art (mostly) is human, and you can't escape human emotion or ideas when dealing with anime ir any human art form. I don't think it's something you need to consider when taking an anime in even, but I do think the artists feeling and thought process is there, no artist can entirely remove themselves from that.

Unrelated, but what were your thoughts on Ghost in the Shell? That's the latest /cel/ related anime I've seen.

 No.2820

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>>2819
I guess we mostly agree then. I'm not denying that an animator's personality and feelings don't go into their work. What I don't like is the culture of reducing art to the artist. I like to see art as a sandbox the creator has setup for you to play around in, but its rigged to nudge you in a certain direction or make you feel a certain thing. You can see their fingerprints everywhere.

>art (mostly) is human, and you can't escape human emotion or ideas when dealing with anime ir any human art form.
I'm not sure there are universal human experiences beyond extremely basic biological functions. What it means to be a person has changed radically over the centuries. I'd like to see art that explores the experience of being non-human, inhuman or the limits where the line between human and non-human becomes blurry.

>what were your thoughts on Ghost in the Shell?
I love the way the film explores the breakdown of the human-machine divide and the way it represents that visually. Motoko disappearing into the concrete jungle as if humanity itself is dissolving into the artificial. The famous diving scene, the nudity, dream sequences etc. The way the machines almost feel organic. It really nails that deep sense of unease at the possibility reality isn't what it seems, the doubt about one's own existence. Its an old theme in religion and mysticism less in fiction but combined with post-modern anxieties about tech and dystopia. You really feel Motoko's depersonalization and commodification, her lack of agency and the way her identity has been stripped.

 No.2821

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1790s manga > 90s anime

 No.2822

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>>2820
Yeah, seems we're not too different in our way of thinking. I'm probably not as experienced in anime as much as you are. There's quite a few essential classics I haven't seen yet. Most of my anime experience has been from the 2000s around the time I grew up. I like to stick to the 90s-2000s, but I'll probably start branching out.

As for Ghost in the Shell, It seems like you got more enjoyment out of it than me. It seems like we probably majorly differ in in our interest in themes. The self indulgence of evangelion's existentialism and exploration of mental illness engaged me far more, whereas Ghost in the Shell felt far less human. I mean I get that was the point, and I don't consider it a flaw.I just think that the film was a stylish enjoyable military type action film with themes I wasn't that engaged with. In excited to try Lain, though. That'll be next.

 No.2826

Been searching for recommendations for great anime from the 90s. You seem like you know a lot. If you have any share them in the anime topic room at https://depvana.com/topic/195
There I'm trying to compile a permanent list. cheers,

 No.3077

>>2813
>The story is Star Wars level Evil Nazi Coded Empire vs Space America.
Way to miss the entire point. Let me guess, you haven't even watched past season 2?

 No.3079

>>2813
>The average admiral can't even command one battle group properly but in LOTGH they can command hundreds of ships at once? No communications breakdown?

You do realize that those battles take place over the span of multiple days, right? Just one fleet going to reinforce another usually takes at least 5 hours to happen from the point the command is issued, and communications do often break down. They also have multiple staff members doing part of the job. Its not one guy managing 100 ships every minute like some sort of professional Starcraft wizard.

 No.3111

>>2813
Heinous, blasphemous opinions about Legend of the Galactic Heroes! It sounds like someone was outsmarted by Yang Wen-Li and his perfect concave formation. Glory to the semicircle!

 No.3112

>>3079
Actual naval battles talk place over days too. But fleet sizes that large would be impossible to effectively command, even if you have lots of officers and staff, the admirals at the top just wouldn't be able to make decisions. There are too many moving pieces and it overloads the mind.

 No.3117

>>3112
Wouldn't that explain why all the tactics are extremely blunt and vague? Like "ok lets form a semi circle around them" because doing anything more intricate than that would be impossible. The degree to which even these basic plans constantly go awry or are miscalculated seems to track with the scale problem well.

 No.3119

>>2819
>Satoshi Kon had presonal feelings about how it negatively affected japanese culture
>>No, the film is not based on any criticism. If the audience get the impression from watching the film that the idol system in Japan is like that, I'm embarrassed. Of course I did research before making the film and I visited a number of these idol events, but I didn't see the kind of example that is used in the film. Also, to reveal behind-the-scenes secrets about the entertainment world was never my intention. I simply wanted to show the process of a young girl maturing, becoming confused because her old set of values gets shattered, but who is reborn as a mature being as a result of that. That's what I wanted to describe. But because I had to stick with the idea of an idol, the film came to talk about that particular world.

 No.3121

>>3119
That's interesting but I don't think we have to be anchored to Satoshi Kon's intent to interpret Perfect Blue in our own way. Although this brings up other problems, like Western audiences inserting their own autistic value system into everything such that Ranma becomes non-binary or something and every Gibli movie is about Shinto and nature.

One thing I don't like about Perfect Blue is that it feels too optimistic. Mima recovers at the end, discovers the truth about the imposter, ends up pretty secure in her sense of self. But 21st cen. urban post-modern consumer life this doesn't really happen. We're all broken, mixed up, and confused, and we don't get an opportunity to fix ourselves like this. We're all disassociated, and anxious with a warped sense of reality. You can never find the real you. Its just endless insecurity with no resolution. I'd like to think that the ending where Mima looks in the mirror and says she's the real Mima is darker that it seems, like she's just falling for yet another image in the mirror.

 No.3165

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>>3119
Fair enough, I did say it was likely, not definite. I'm really only speculating here. Was more a fan of Paprika anyway.

>>3121
I'm pretty certain that was the point, and the whole idea of the film's end being optimistic is a deliberate falsity. It's a false optimistic ending where psychologically there's still deep trauma and damage lurking under the surface Mima deliberately avoids. Without spoiling the film, it sort of mirrors Taxi Driver, where the horror is despite what's happened, Travi is still himself, but with Perfect Blue Mima is bright and bubbly in her running away and denying the core issue.

 No.3189

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>>2813
>Why do people even like Cowboy Bebop so much?
It got the right exposure, and that largely determined popularity back in an era where we didn't have streaming and anime was less accessible.
It also resonates with a lot of people in the west because it is quite 'western' itself. It's kinda neo-noir, the characters are cowboys/bounty hunters but in space. A serviceable english dub for normalfrens. A fantastic soundtrack. It isn't surprising its popularity has endured

>why isn't there more love for Texhnolyze?

Because its slow and doesn't have the same aesthetic appeal and 'wtf' energy of Lain to keep people engaged.

 No.3194

>>3165
>>3121
Hi! I didn't like Perfect Blue's ending either. Not because it was too optimistic, honestly. I just didn't like the conclusion to the setup. As far as mysteries go, it felt like such a disappointing conclusion after all the mindbending stuff set up in the first part.

The whole "the other ugly person in the movie was secretly evil" felt like such a weak reveal. I know it was set up in that she was also an idol, but it felt really out of nowhere given the rest of the film.



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