Tuned in to Retro Anime / Manga!

I love all of the shows you mentioned. Get on my level.

What shows do you like anon?

>>2815
There are only a handful I thought were really great. Angel's Egg, Shojo Tsubaki, and Lain are great anime.. Perfect Blue was very good but the ending was disappointing. Cat Soup and Le Portrait de Petit Cossette are great but not /cel/. Isao Takahata's films were amazing. I can't think of much else.

Animation is an extension of fiction. By the end of the 20th century, traditional narrative structures and themes had been explored to the point of exhaustion. They have been done to death, but not quite, they live on zombie like. The same ground is trodden and re-trodden time and time again. That's why people find Romeo and Juliette boring. Viewing shows is an exercise in frustration as they carry on the same tired and worn fictional themes. Structures that go back decades, even centuries.

The 90s is seen as a golden age, but it was full of stale old fiction and it in turn generated the ossified staleness of anime we have today. Cowboy Bebop is tired and worn and feels soulless and dull. Its a pastiche which fictional elements going back to Japanese period dramas even. Evangelion is just hypocritical, good but so self-indulgent. LOTGH is a Star Wars re-hash and again draws on tired old themes of epic fiction going back centuries. Anime was already exhausted by the 90s and now everything is just a reskin of what was a hit back then. It was an age where the experimentation of the 80s sunk.

I think understand why Miyazaki love/hates anime industry, fandom, and otakus. I disagree but ultimately he is correct.

>>2816
Nothing new under the sun anon. Your problem with fiction as you've described it has been going on far before not only the end of 20th century anime, but anime itself, and other art forms like film and literature. Every human problem or feeling has been explored a thousands time over already. Then again, maybe that's what you're getting at.

Art's about communication of feeling and ideas that are new to you, or relate to you. It sounds to me like you're voicing your dislike of the 90s but your line of reasoning could really be extended towards disliking any anime ever or maybe any piece of media if it's taken to its logical conclusion.

>>2813
Yes, it's not a problem limited to anime. I'm not just complaining about a lack of originality but that the same elements that make up a story have been explored to the point of being milked dry. I do think its possible to come up with new forms, themes, and elements and to re-work older ones in new ways and explore problems that humans have never faced before e.g. human-computer relationship. Lain is a good example of that. Perfect Blue picks on the same themes but mixes them with the old trope of the struggling artist in a way that's really fresh.

Personally, I don't think art should be about expressing your feelings. That can lead to interpretation being chained to the author and we have to keep deferring to the author to know what something means. Great art isn't about expressing your opinions as an artist, but creating a mirror through which others can explore their own feelings.

But I do think there are times when sending an explicit hamfisted message and expressing your emotions is absolutely justified e.g. Kuroi Ame, Ore wa Mita and Barefoot Gen.

>>2818
What you've said about art being a mirror to explore your own feelings was essentially what I meant, so we're basically saying the same thing. I was referring to the person engaging with the art, not the artist when I said that. And I don't disagree that new forms or styles are created and as technology advances to new places fresh concepts can be explored.

However, I can't agree with the idea that an anime director for instance doesn't put their own issues or emotions into their art to some degree, andit doesn't have to be as upfront and in your face as evangelion's psychology or existentialism either. Perfect Blue's story in part criticizes idol and celebrity culture likely because Satoshi Kon had personal feelings about how it negatively affected japanese culture, the choice to explore a deteriorating mental state and how it can completely alter the way a story is told could be seen in the same way. Even stylistic choices of a shows editing or character design could be seen as reflective of the artists personality.

Then again, this is an old tired argument of the death of the artist, and whether that's meaningful to even consider when watching something. And it's possible I might be misunderstanding you in some ways. My point really is that art (mostly) is human, and you can't escape human emotion or ideas when dealing with anime ir any human art form. I don't think it's something you need to consider when taking an anime in even, but I do think the artists feeling and thought process is there, no artist can entirely remove themselves from that.

Unrelated, but what were your thoughts on Ghost in the Shell? That's the latest /cel/ related anime I've seen.

>>2819
I guess we mostly agree then. I'm not denying that an animator's personality and feelings don't go into their work. What I don't like is the culture of reducing art to the artist. I like to see art as a sandbox the creator has setup for you to play around in, but its rigged to nudge you in a certain direction or make you feel a certain thing. You can see their fingerprints everywhere.

>art (mostly) is human, and you can't escape human emotion or ideas when dealing with anime ir any human art form.
I'm not sure there are universal human experiences beyond extremely basic biological functions. What it means to be a person has changed radically over the centuries. I'd like to see art that explores the experience of being non-human, inhuman or the limits where the line between human and non-human becomes blurry.

>what were your thoughts on Ghost in the Shell?
I love the way the film explores the breakdown of the human-machine divide and the way it represents that visually. Motoko disappearing into the concrete jungle as if humanity itself is dissolving into the artificial. The famous diving scene, the nudity, dream sequences etc. The way the machines almost feel organic. It really nails that deep sense of unease at the possibility reality isn't what it seems, the doubt about one's own existence. Its an old theme in religion and mysticism less in fiction but combined with post-modern anxieties about tech and dystopia. You really feel Motoko's depersonalization and commodification, her lack of agency and the way her identity has been stripped.

1790s manga > 90s anime

>>2820
Yeah, seems we're not too different in our way of thinking. I'm probably not as experienced in anime as much as you are. There's quite a few essential classics I haven't seen yet. Most of my anime experience has been from the 2000s around the time I grew up. I like to stick to the 90s-2000s, but I'll probably start branching out.

As for Ghost in the Shell, It seems like you got more enjoyment out of it than me. It seems like we probably majorly differ in in our interest in themes. The self indulgence of evangelion's existentialism and exploration of mental illness engaged me far more, whereas Ghost in the Shell felt far less human. I mean I get that was the point, and I don't consider it a flaw.I just think that the film was a stylish enjoyable military type action film with themes I wasn't that engaged with. In excited to try Lain, though. That'll be next.

Been searching for recommendations for great anime from the 90s. You seem like you know a lot. If you have any share them in the anime topic room at https://depvana.com/topic/195
There I'm trying to compile a permanent list. cheers,

>>2813
>The story is Star Wars level Evil Nazi Coded Empire vs Space America.
Way to miss the entire point. Let me guess, you haven't even watched past season 2?

>>2813
>The average admiral can't even command one battle group properly but in LOTGH they can command hundreds of ships at once? No communications breakdown?

You do realize that those battles take place over the span of multiple days, right? Just one fleet going to reinforce another usually takes at least 5 hours to happen from the point the command is issued, and communications do often break down. They also have multiple staff members doing part of the job. Its not one guy managing 100 ships every minute like some sort of professional Starcraft wizard.

>>2813
Heinous, blasphemous opinions about Legend of the Galactic Heroes! It sounds like someone was outsmarted by Yang Wen-Li and his perfect concave formation. Glory to the semicircle!

>>3079
Actual naval battles talk place over days too. But fleet sizes that large would be impossible to effectively command, even if you have lots of officers and staff, the admirals at the top just wouldn't be able to make decisions. There are too many moving pieces and it overloads the mind.

>>3112
Wouldn't that explain why all the tactics are extremely blunt and vague? Like "ok lets form a semi circle around them" because doing anything more intricate than that would be impossible. The degree to which even these basic plans constantly go awry or are miscalculated seems to track with the scale problem well.

>>3119
That's interesting but I don't think we have to be anchored to Satoshi Kon's intent to interpret Perfect Blue in our own way. Although this brings up other problems, like Western audiences inserting their own autistic value system into everything such that Ranma becomes non-binary or something and every Gibli movie is about Shinto and nature.

One thing I don't like about Perfect Blue is that it feels too optimistic. Mima recovers at the end, discovers the truth about the imposter, ends up pretty secure in her sense of self. But 21st cen. urban post-modern consumer life this doesn't really happen. We're all broken, mixed up, and confused, and we don't get an opportunity to fix ourselves like this. We're all disassociated, and anxious with a warped sense of reality. You can never find the real you. Its just endless insecurity with no resolution. I'd like to think that the ending where Mima looks in the mirror and says she's the real Mima is darker that it seems, like she's just falling for yet another image in the mirror.

>>3119
Fair enough, I did say it was likely, not definite. I'm really only speculating here. Was more a fan of Paprika anyway.

>>3121
I'm pretty certain that was the point, and the whole idea of the film's end being optimistic is a deliberate falsity. It's a false optimistic ending where psychologically there's still deep trauma and damage lurking under the surface Mima deliberately avoids. Without spoiling the film, it sort of mirrors Taxi Driver, where the horror is despite what's happened, Travi is still himself, but with Perfect Blue Mima is bright and bubbly in her running away and denying the core issue.

>>2813
>Why do people even like Cowboy Bebop so much?
It got the right exposure, and that largely determined popularity back in an era where we didn't have streaming and anime was less accessible.
It also resonates with a lot of people in the west because it is quite 'western' itself. It's kinda neo-noir, the characters are cowboys/bounty hunters but in space. A serviceable english dub for normalfrens. A fantastic soundtrack. It isn't surprising its popularity has endured

>why isn't there more love for Texhnolyze?
Because its slow and doesn't have the same aesthetic appeal and 'wtf' energy of Lain to keep people engaged.

>>3165
>>3121
Hi! I didn't like Perfect Blue's ending either. Not because it was too optimistic, honestly. I just didn't like the conclusion to the setup. As far as mysteries go, it felt like such a disappointing conclusion after all the mindbending stuff set up in the first part.

The whole "the other ugly person in the movie was secretly evil" felt like such a weak reveal. I know it was set up in that she was also an idol, but it felt really out of nowhere given the rest of the film.

>>2813
>gets filtered by logh
Embarrassing.

>posts ai
Against the rules.

I've been watching Outlaw Star recently and I can't think a single reason why Cowboy Bebop is more popular. Outlaw Star is just better and more energic at everything. Maybe it was because it never got dubbed, which is a shame. I dosn't think Bebop is bad but OS is much better.

Evangelion is dogshit though.

>>3347
>Maybe it was because it never got dubbed, which is a shame.
It literally aired on Toonami; in fact one of the most famous things about it was that when it was released stateside they didn't air the hot springs episode.

>I can't think a single reason why Cowboy Bebop is more popular
Outlaw Star had a far lower budget and constantly went off-model; it was far more otaku-friendly with the harem-esque cast of cute girls (and Fred) as opposed to Bebop's more mainstream-respectable lineup; it's more colorful and cartoony as opposed to Bebop's neo-noir palette; Bebop tends to delve into its characters far better than Outlaw Star does, which tends to settle for more fun (but less deep) action hijinks.

I rate them both about equally but it's clear why Bebop was picked as the Toonami flag bearer and Outlaw Star is relegated to "really good to those who saw it at the tine" status. Trigun was bigger back then as well - even if it's largely disappeared from everyone's memory - so Outlaw Star has always been seen as the runt of the littler of the '98 space westerns.

>>2813
Corporate racism is why bebop is more popular. It was the least 'japanese' of anime available so the suits felt comfortable pushing it without risking losing market share to other japanese products. Simarily this is why the show wasn't very popular in japan. You could easily pretend bebop was a western cartoon in the anime style if you were just some random person watching it for the first time. Nearly all the songs are in english, and outside of a few skits, most of the characters dont really look 'anime'. It was one of the first animes to have tons of black and brown people in casual roles and not presented as characitures, which the corporate jewish producers absolutely loved, and it had lots of black culture references/jazz/ect. The mc is racially ambiguous and if you squint a bit you can pretend his side kick is also person of color. The tomboy loli doesnt come in until halfway through the series and by that point you are already invested so it doesnt effect your viewing experience.

Meanwhile outlaw star is as japanese as japanese can be. it has a cool mecha, a chad white/japanese protag, hot naked chicks and cat girls. Thats fine for a season of easy money but its not fine for a flagship product that has to make the shareholders happy. After all, if these dumb american brats start watching too much anime then they will stop watching western animation.

LOTGH is a space opera, and space operas were really popular on mainstream western tv. The 90s and 00s had lots of scifi shows that qualified as such, like babylon 5 and tha various star trek series. Every since the space race, americans have loved all things outerspacey so its a no brainer why it resognates with western audiences. The best thing is, space operas dont have to be realistic for westerners to enjoy so cartoon space oprah is double the fun for everyone.

I personally never watched Texhnolyze, primarily because it was really hard to find. Lain on the otherhand, was easy to find online and was occasionally shown on western television. The show thats easier to access is obviously going to get a bigger fanbase. Texhnolyze also commits the cardinal sin of having a really crappy name. If a person can't pronouce the show's name, then its unlikely they will even bother to try it much less try to talk about it.

>>3347
bepop was constantly promoted, and shown more often. outlaw star was ran then disapeared. in toonami adverts you might see little cuts from outlaw star scenes that looked cool but nothing that actuall indicated which show it was from if you werent familiar with it. But everyone knew bebop because they never let you forget about it.

>>3351
>Simarily this is why the show wasn't very popular in japan

It's TV ratings in Japan were actually quite good.

"Between them, late night slots and WOWOW accounted for half of the ten 10k+ hits from that same 1997-2000 time period; Brain Powerd, Cowboy Bebop, Hand Maid May, Initial D, and To Heart."

https://animetics.net/2014/09/29/timeslot-history-1994-2000-wrapup/

>>3356
Well that's certainly true from a by view basis but I mean over all. For example, bebop ultimately got 1 series, 1 movie, 3 volumes and then done if I am not mistaken. The show wasn't really popular enough to push the series forward to more success. It was a novelty that people moved on from. Compare that to to-heart. Directly after the tv show, a manga was spawned and ultimately the series got a 2nd game. Now compare that to the beast that is Initial D. Initial D is still making new content, and currently is at like 5 tv series, 2 ovas, 8 movies, and 48 volumes of manga.

>>3358
Right, but most anime in general weren't large franchises like that, and there is more to the calculus when it comes to sequels than just popularity, like the consumer habits of the fanbase. Niche shows with a fanbase that will buy lots of merch can make up the difference, for example. Initial D and To Heart are also adaptations of other media, where Bebop is an original, so fairly different context.

>>3348
I don't really see how Cowboy Bebop characters are "deeper" than Outlaw Star. Just because one has all this melancholic jazzy aura doesn't mean is deeper. Outlaw Star is stronger in its vitalistic themes that just parading around navel gazing about whatever ghost of the past. And I think its themes resonate better through the power of will and lifting yourself up.

>>3352
Yeah, that sounds more plausible. Gene is a hyper-masculine character, he fights, he grabs butts, he's gallant and refuses to beat woman. Totally the opposite of the type of character that became mainstream after that and makes cat ladies go "oh nooes" while also wetting their panties.