No.2661[Last 50 Posts]
The tournament you didn't see coming!
hisoutensoku is an expansion to touhou 10.5, made by tasofro with ZUN's approval. It's a fast paced fighting game featuring all your favorites from the touhou project.
sign up at
https://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/V6f4ppZTdC or reply so I can add you manually.
view the bracket at
https://challonge.com/wapsoku8i've setup the game myself so all you have to do is download
https://files.wapchan.org/sokupack.zip, run SokuLauncher.exe, and choose the first option (giuroll). may need to update the launcher first.
wiki:
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/this tournament will be livestreamed at
https://stream.wapchan.org/r/sokutourneyNOTE: THE START TIME HAS BEEN MOVED AN HOUR LATER THAN USUAL
PREVIOUS CHAMPS:
I - superplapper
II - Az
III - Az
IV - sixty
V - Duck
VI - Az
VII - superplapper
No.2663
Pre-tourney soku gaming?
No.2666
>>2665Try 89.254.226.202:10800, if it doesn't work either you'll have to be the one hosting.
No.2667
>>2666Still won't connect, try joining 5.16.24.112:10800.
No.2668
>>2667GGs, thanks for the games. I was trying to host with sokuroll instead of giuroll, no wonder it wasn't working.
No.2670
I'm not sure I'll be back home to start at 1. Will probably have to delay (I'll update when I'm back)
No.2671
Alright I just got back. We can start at 1:30 or 2 if there are enough people (otherwise it will get pushed back to tomorrow/next week)
No.2672
>>2671sign me up as Az
i'd be down to start as early as possible, might have to leave a bit later so hopefully it won't take too long
No.2673
>>2671oh fuck I forgot about the need to sign up
Sign up Mado
No.2675
>>2671Not sure how deep in the night I can go, I'd rather have it tomorrow if we start too late today.
No.2676
Ok we should have enough to work with today
>>2675Hopefully it wont take too long
No.2677
Sign me up as E.E.
No.2678
For anyone who still wants to sign up please send your name ASAP
No.2679
Mado are you there?
No.2685
soku?
No.2686
Soku gaming now?
No.2688
>>2687Hop on 5.16.24.112:10800 with giuroll!
No.2691
soku in waplobby
No.2692
>>2691good games
thanks to all who came by!
No.2695
soku?
No.2696
soku in wap lobby
No.2697
good games
try not to be so aggressive, 66C on your wakeup should not be a good option
No.2698
Few things feel as good as raw IDs. I wish it was a bit faster so I could bait into it intentionally.
>>2697Ggs!
> try not to be so aggressiveNon-aggressive Aya is dead Aya, just a little later. 66C is least of my concern really, theoretically I could maybe even fly back before you hit me. What destroys me most are DPs, I hate them so much it's unreal, only Yuyu lets me really keep up oki vs DP character without superplayer techs.
No.2700
More soku gaming?
No.2702
>>2701Hop on 5.16.26.27:10800 with giuroll!
No.2704
>>2703Ggs! Can't believe I used ID during scorching sun AGAIN.
> I'll stop trying to graze the big tornado any day now.You do it so intensely that at some point my brain just stopped and I tried to catch you with it during spring haze, lol.
No.2705
Soku gaming?
No.2706
Soku, in lobby!
No.2707
GGs! I ended up understanding the Yuyuko matchup better. Dash up/downs are surprisingly useful under pressure - as are fullscreen lasers. Need to have frames for them, though.
623B practice keeps being the order of the day.
No.2708
>>2707Ggs! I think I can finally properly call Yuyu my side main as she does bring significantly better results in unfavourable for Aya matchups.
> as are fullscreen lasersThis laser gotta be Marisa's most busted move, literally unpunishable bullet even if you graze it. It soon will be a year since I've first encountered a Marisa player, and I still don't get what am I supposed to do with it since blocking results into death, and grazing it results into being hit by it if I try something too early, or zero risk cancel into melee if I don't get hit by laser.
No.2709
More soku gaming?
No.2710
>>2708>I still don't get what am I supposed to do with it since blocking results into death, and grazing it results into being hit by it if I try something too earlyWell, look. The premise is, Yuyuko works best when she's spamming bullets, then goes into melee with bullet cover, so that bullet hits and melee hits overlap. It's like this:
1) Yuyuko is far away from her opponent
2) Yuyuko starts spamming bullets from afar, preferably in the air
3) Yuyuko moves into melee and starts dealing damage
Now, The Laser is a natural response to inadequate positioning of step 2. If you decide to go into air from far away, during your game plan, you are PROBABLY going to flood the screen in about three to five seconds. I need to pre empt that, therefore, Laser.
To contain the threat of Laser, the simplest solution is to watch if Marisa can do it from where she is. You watch both positioning and how much time she has to do the laser - notably, it does NOT pierce Yuyuko's bullet cover if it's out already, so if you are faster, it might be worth spamming bullets even if you could get hit by Laser already.
>, or zero risk cancel into melee if I don't get hit by laser.Melee canceling from laser beams are far from instant. You need to complete Laser's full move duration - while with 5c green star bullets, the jumpout IS actually instant.
A good hint is that Marisa isn't actually capable of 6C -> jumpout -> any melee with that being tight - there's always going to be gaps. While with 5C -> jumpout -> j.5a has potential to be airtight - though it very often isn't, because the angle required for the jumpout j.5a to hit in both midscreen and corner is very painful to set up right. And since there are gaps after 6C goes into air melee (or any dash down/air bullet trickery), you can exploit that.
In short: get better at reaction time, you can do it if you try.
No.2711
>>2709Okay, fine, back in lobby.
No.2712
>>2710I meant close range laser pressure situations and blockstrings, when it's graze or block, on big distance it's adequate move even if still rather unpleasant to deal with. In corner, grazing laser means DP, and blocking means getting into blockstring which I can't just break free from yet.
> Melee canceling from laser beams are far from instantIt isn't? It's a C bullet so it should be cancellable into skills, and Marisa has melee skills to cancel it to.
> it does NOT pierce Yuyuko's bullet cover if it's out alreadyBwuh? I'm pretty sure lasers pierce any other bullet. Now I can use my own lasers, but it's gotta be a good read since they are much slower to come out.
No.2713
soku?
No.2714
>>2712>I'm pretty sure lasers pierce any other bulletMarisa's lasers are, infamously, not real lasers. In fact they actually have rather low HP
No.2715
>>2711Ggs! I guess I'll make a meta deck for Yuyu after all, opportunity cost of butterfly disco is way too big.
>>2714I know, but this pseudolaser is still denser than other bullets, especially in case of Yuyuko who only has rather fragile butterflies. Most they can tank are Marisa's B bullets
which by the way is a lot for me after all this time playing Aya and being absolutely crippled by any Marisa's bullets at all.
>>2713Hop on 5.16.26.197:10800 with giuroll!
No.2716
GGs. Pressure practice is nice.
>>2712>In corner, grazing laser means DPI actually can't do that kind of stuff instantly, I'm not that good. And DP is generally on a read - if that gets blocked, it's big trouble.
>It's a C bullet so it should be cancellable into skills, and Marisa has melee skills to cancel it to.Skills, sure - but 236B/C is slow (and costs an orb, which is really not always there) and 214/623 require commitment because both getting blocked generally means Marisa gets combo'd. You can jump out of it, but it's slow.
6C/j.6C laser DOES get one sweet property though - it's not Border Escapable until the very last frame. It means that if Marisa lands a 6C laser when her opponent's spirit bar is less than 2, she can follow up with a spellcard before it ends for a guaranteed guard break. It's another knowledge check some people don't know.
Unblocked 214 into 214 after leveling up the move is another funny knowledge check. But that's for another time.
>>2714Yeah, that.
No.2717
>>2715ggs, looks like my isp decided that was last game too. switching from Suwako to any other character is really weird, my muscle memory keeps forgetting that i don't need to enter lilypad stance to block crossups or that walking forward doesn't get me murdered anymore
thanks for hosting
No.2718
>>2717Ggs! Tenshi didn't turn out to be what I thought she is, but now I'm curious enough to at least investigate her more in depth. Totally not because she has giant fuarking laser, uh-huh.
> or that walking forward doesn't get me murdered anymoreWalking backwards can also get you murdered lmao, I knew what I was doing with this spellcard.
No.2720
soku in wap lobby!
No.2723
Hop on 5.16.26.231:10800 with giuroll!
No.2725
soku?
No.2726
>>2725Still waiting in lobby
No.2728
>>2727GGs
That was very intense soku!
No.2729
>>2723Great! My worst suspicions were confirmed.
It's a Linux software issue. Until it's magically fixed, I'll just have to play from another PC like I did just now.
That aside, GGs! Tenshi sure was fresh, Aya matches were super close today. Very good soku.
No.2730
>>2729Ggs! Tenshi's stuff is quite fun, sometimes goofy, and quite satisfying when I get to land anything. I actually did her combo trials yesterday deceptively easily, but habit of using 5B instead of j.2B/6A/j.6a I got while playing Aya really hurt my combos in real game.
Also this 5c seems to be more useful than I thought it would, I imagine it's not that easy to accurately count 7 seconds during the ongoing battle.
No.2731
soku?
No.2732
soku
No.2733
>>2732Hop on 5.16.27.180:10800 with giuroll!
No.2734
>>2732Ggs! Lots of Cirno today, as if RNGod knew I was specifically raging at her smallness.
Turns out even charged drills can't pierce Sanae's stars. Now I'm wondering, what non-laser bullet can pierce them aside from Yuyu's ghosts and Okuu (but at this point I'm not even sure about her and she can't launch her giant balls upwards anyways).
On the bright side, stone shield actually tanks bullets quite well as long as they are not lasers. I know what I'm going to do with Patchy once I get to know Tenshi better.
I already imagine lvl4 shield and superarmour 4c during scorching sun. No.2735
>>2734ggs
drills aren't really that dense. maybe for their type, but charged drills lose even to Aya 6C cleanly so yeah, not particularly good at trades
>what non-laser bullet can pierce them aside from Yuyu's ghosts and OkuuSakuya j5C eats just about everything you throw at it so that's one
thanks for hosting
No.2736
also up for a few more games if anyone wants to host
No.2737
>>273684.10.221.254:10801
soku!
No.2738
>>2735Yeah, drills are simply lower tier bullets since they are B bullets. Tenshi's C series technically should be able to beat Sanae's stuff with 10vs7 hp, but I guess they just disengage too quickly.
No.2739
>>2737ggs, sorry gotta go now
thanks for hosting
No.2742
Soku gaming?
No.2746
>>2744
>>2745
What is this?
No.2747
>>2743Hop on 5.16.28.34:10800 with giuroll!
>>2746Shortened link apparently, reported just in case.
No.2748
>>2747Ok, short set because I have to go.
No.2749
>>2748>>2747GGs
Sorry for the short set
No.2751
More soku gaming?
No.2754
>>2753Ggs! One step forward, two steps back… I feel like I'm hitting another skill plateau.
Is my pressure that predictable, or 66A is in fact totally reactable? Seeing several purposefully randomized Nx2A->66A perfectly blocked in a row was rather crushing to be honest. Also still can't get past the fact that 6A is Aya's only anti-air and only thing it leads to is 1.5k on counterhit.
No.2756
soku?
No.2757
Soku gaming?
No.2759
>>2758Brb, I'll try rebooting my router, net seizures are getting nastier and nastier.
No.2761
>>2758Ggs! Soku as hard as ever, but today I think I finally understand what exactly I need and can improve.
Also after last games I'm considering taking out even 236 skillcards and just spamming 1c+2c in each blockstring till opponent is at zero orbs. Somehow it never stoke me that opponent without few orbs isn't only easier to pressure and break, but also easier to escape from.
No.2762
soku in lobby (10:20 pm moment)
No.2763
soku?
No.2764
Good games!
No.2766
Soku gaming?
No.2768
is sleepychan down
No.2769
>>2766GGs, good soku. Getting all five orbs broken is pretty brutal.
>>2768Works on my machine, even if it's kinda slow.
No.2770
>>2769Ggs!
> Getting all five orbs broken is pretty brutal.Two broken orbs is the border of snowball, after that wb3A/6A->6C-236 (or border inescapable wb3A/6A->2c) seals the deal. And now that I think of it, it isn't that hard to get these two orbs right after one broken orb if I just don't go for combo and instead start a new blockstring.
Thus spell spam deck has enormous potential, but I'm really not sure how well it will do against characters with tighter pressure than Alice has.
No.2772
>>2771frame advantage assumes the move isn't getting cancelled, so you let the whole animation play out. it doesn't take cancelling into account because letting the move finish rather than moving further into the chain is what allows resets to happen, and bypassing a move's frame data is the entire point of cancelling
your scenario would only be accurate if Alice waits for the entirety of 66A to finish and then, on the first frame, starts her special
No.2773
>>2768should be back by now
No.2774
soku in lobby
No.2775
>>2774Good games!
Consider trying to graze Marisa's 6C attempts in melee (Alice player did it with great results) and calling out Marisa's attempts at ground 6A's in response to your flying.
And come to church if you are at all able.
No.2776
>>2775Ggs! I noticed you're one of few coin card users around here, however I see it in every other deck when I check tourney games on youtube. What's the secret power of it? From my experience it mostly was spirit and deck space waste in most cases, and only very few times I've got caught on whiff by it.
> Consider trying to graze Marisa's 6C attempts in melee (Alice player did it with great results)Alice is Alice with her 66A, for Aya it's way harder to do. Most importantly though, I'm not sure if your up-close 6Cs weren't tight, but if they weren't I'd have to hold 6D while in blockstun instead of keeping block up, and it would get me vulnerable to cancels into melee. Though you don't really do that, but you can start at any time so I'm not feeling safe about it.
> and calling out Marisa's attempts at ground 6A's in response to your flying.I was trying to evade it or hit you out of the charging animation, but 6A's hitbox is deceptively tall. I swear half of hitboxes in this game are like that, never know how it will hit you.
No.2777
>I noticed you're one of few coin card users around here, however I see it in every other deck when I check tourney games on youtube. What's the secret power of it? From my experience it mostly was spirit and deck space waste in most cases, and only very few times I've got caught on whiff by it.
It makes opponent's melee pressure in the middle of the screen completely whiff after enough pushback. You don't need to worry about border escaping into air pressure - you just use space as a buffer to reset. It's a good tool when hangekis and barriers don't seem to work, and I don't want to rely on those too much regardless because of Marisa's 623B already needing tricks to land.
>I'm not sure if your up-close 6Cs weren't tight, but if they weren't I'd have to hold 6D while in blockstun instead of keeping block up
You can do it on reaction. When Marisa does a 6C windup, graze forward.
>I was trying to evade it or hit you out of the charging animation, but 6A's hitbox is deceptively tall. I swear half of hitboxes in this game are like that, never know how it will hit you.
Practice makes perfect, just grind more.
I'll be on break for now, could be back today if brain and stamina lets me do that.
No.2778
soku
No.2779
soku in lobby
No.2781
anyone else soku
>>2779ggs, thanks for playing
No.2783
Soku gaming?
No.2786
>>2784Hop on 5.16.26.225:10800 with giuroll!
No.2787
soku?
No.2789
>>2788Ggs! Two wins felt kinda cheesy when you forced typhoon with no health while I had half hp to go, but I'll take them still.
> Entering Sakuya's timestop on an iframe never gets old.I was so confused about this one since I don't even remember your spell flash coming out. I wonder if there is even any point in using ZAWARUDO vs characters with reverals and DPs.
No.2790
>>2789>when you forced typhoon with no health while I had half hp to goBoth times I thought it was you with no health and me with a sizable advantage. Distinguishing left from right is not an easy task.
>I wonder if there is even any point in using ZAWARUDO vs characters with reverals and DPs.The usual Sakuya doesn't leave me enough time to use Tripwire on wakeup. I think it's just a matter of timing.
No.2791
Is there an option to change delay manually in newer giuroll version that is in sokulauncher? 9 and 0 works on my older 0.6.17-4 but doesn't seem to work on 0.6.18, there's also nothing about in on patchnotes.
No.2792
soku
No.2793
Soku gaming?
No.2797
More soku gaming?
No.2799
>>2798I'll be up in half an hour or so.
No.2800
>>2799Host once you'll be ready.
No.2801
>>2800Hop on 37.112.18.40:10800 with giuroll!
No.2802
>>2800Ggs! Out of soku juice to the paint of pain in hands as for today.
Yukari just mindbreaks me with these hitboxes, both of herself and her moves and bullets and spellcards… Never know if you'll hit her, never know if she'll hit you.
No.2803
>>2801GGs, thanks for the games. The neutral was something else this set, neither side cared to go in and was content doing nothing while staying a whole screen away. I feel like no memorable interactions happened in neutral, only some things on pressure and defense.
No.2804
>>2803I genuinely tried thinking on how to play neutral in meaningful way against defensive opponent, but to no avail. It feels like soku favours reactive play and you're doomed to fail offence if opponent reacts correctly and your character doesn't have decent setplay/LONG safe melees. Spamming bullets that are most obviously not hitting anyone at least gives you some meter though, so yeah glory to 5[B]. But that's for Aya/Tenshi, Yuyu on the other hand has setplay, but she also can win by just pressing C+214/236 and going into close quarters is often unnecessary risk unless you have timebombs to attach.
That being said, I'll try spectating next time you play with someone else from here (hopefully not in double Alice chamber format lol), to see how others conduct their approaches. Surely superplayers know how to deal with such neutral…
No.2805
Soku in ze lobby.
>>2804I remember going through this phase. I was used to having the heavy bullet piledriver put to my face every game so my planning horizon shrunk to pretty much a few seconds. Even when I recognised I was playing a non-committal player, if I lost focus or tried to practice some other tech, I'd immediately fall back on my usual offensive habits and start hitting air. One of the subtle things was my deck had evolved around who I usually play against, so even my tools in game had shifted to be vs what I was used to. It's not even necessarily the alts per say but the perspective change. Experience helps too.
For alts themselves, even the most rush down chars have weird setup skills. If you're vs a non-committal opponent, all you need is for them to not do anything and you get advantage.
Vs ceiling huggers, I've found a good deal of anti-ceiling cards. They usually don't quite do what you want in bread and butter neutral, but give you a good tool for finishing off someone on low spirit or lazily approaching in the air. If you find half your deck doesn't matter in the game because the opponent plays in a way you don't get to use it, then this is a sign.
Then there's even some anti-setup skills if you've vs someone with too oppressive bullet cover. Things that absorb or reflect and such. The meta then evolves to both players threatening to use these, with advantage to who predicts wrong, or just straight up advantage if someone autopilots into their opponents plan.
For people mostly trying to snipe your setups, you want to prod them with low cost attacks to force grazing and movement. Even if you know they'll graze, it locks in the timing of their moves. Sometimes you can feint a snipe or setup, then just move forwards and take stage control and spirit advantage. Counter sniping also works. Don't overspend and you'll be fine.
For positioning, as long as you have mid screen, the reward for catching you opponent vs them getting you is in your favour. Snipes will give you a good setup where as you can often back tech and be ok. If they have a card it can be hard, but if you don't over commit and threaten to grind meter it can even out.
What your char has depends. Sometimes you'll just be out of luck because tasofro was drunk and all your cards suck. I wanted to list some examples but this it too long. Maybe I'll show some, like cirno's SSS tier icicle lance that no one seems to use, assuming I don't job after acting like I know what I'm talking about.
No.2807
>>2806>tomorrow ok fuck that I thought it was saturday
the plan has been downgraded from doppio to mono
No.2808
soku in lobby
I'm hiding from the pubbies on the top floor because they scare me
No.2809
soku?
No.2810
soku
No.2811
>>2805I feel that as Aya main I am out of luck in the end. My entire deckbuilding evolution ended in spellspam deck with sprinkle of tengu drums, as pretty much all other skills suck/are worse considering opportunity cost compared to 1c/2c.
Except tengu drum, Aya's alts all suck. There is one guy here who runs tornado 236 stones 421 def22 deck and he's probably having fun with it, but it sucks if we consider actual practical value. Alt236 ruin already not too impressive combos while not being sturdy enough to be better bullet cover than 6C, stones 421 require complete safety position and snoozing opponent or even knockdown to charge it to meaningful level (also either ruins deck space or you play lottery to get one card of it early).
Now crows 421 might seem to be useful, but to get to the opponent same moment crows hit you gotta be in range of around 1.5 Aya's dashes, and in case of some characters like Meiling, that's danger zone from standing position in any direction so effectively it's voluntarily giving up neutral. In case 421 is casted further away, they are wiped by almost any heavy bullet and can't do anything on their own.
No.2812
Soku gaming?
No.2813
soku?
No.2815
>>2814Hostng in the lobby.
No.2816
>>2811Well good luck champ. Gale fan and that self bullet looked promising, but I don't have real experience with them, and losing gust fan sounds painful.
I could never into unga bunga grazing or 50/50s in neutral without blowing half my hp bar and need my crutch longplay skills. But I've played vs people who somehow manage to slip through the gaps and call out the patterns. But then again, most of them would begin deranged dp spam the moment the game began to turn against them.
tldr: Enjoy your sinful rushdown life.
No.2818
>>2811I think there's a lot of cards Aya can play around with, unless you want your deck to be 100% optimal. Some characters just happen to have very strong specials and spells that leave no room for weaker ones that may be fun to use.
>My entire deckbuilding evolution ended in spellspam deck with sprinkle of tengu drums, as pretty much all other skills suck/are worse considering opportunity cost compared to 1c/2c.The only downside of not bringing Gust Fan cards is having a weaker j236, since all 22X specials can be used to end a combo. Some system cards like soul torch, dragon star or catfish will overall result in you dealing more damage than leveled d236 will, either because you'll have good okizeme with soul torch, a little armor to get in with dragon star, or left/right mixups and unrightblockable setups with catfish. I also think 3sc Tengu's Macroburst is worth to take a look at. It's basically 3sc Maple Leaf Fan, but in the air and can be used to extend air combos in corner.
>There is one guy here who runs tornado 236 stones 421 def22 deck and he's probably having fun with it, but it sucksI can't defend the a236 because it's pretty much useless and d22 is rendered obsolete because of the tengu drum, but pebbles are perfectly usable when you learn how to use them. Use it during every knockdown and at the end of the round you'll have enough stocks for 421C to turn into a win condition if opponent ever blocks it in the corner.
No.2819
>>2816Self bullet thingie is 1c if it was bad. It's one-hit bullet instead of protracted shielding, it's on 421 input which I wouldn't risk trying during a blockstring, lasts less too iirc. 1cs are cheap enough to not bother.
>>2818I replaced all gust fans with 1c/2c, having full load of each, and they work as oki (though I thought of using 1c as oki only this moment lol) and spirit breaking well. Dragon star with its superarmour is the one I gotta investigate. Maybe it was the key to not learning neutral all this time…
> I also think 3sc Tengu's Macroburst is worth to take a look at. It's basically 3sc Maple Leaf Fan, but in the air and can be used to extend air combos in corner.I tried it in my anti-frog deck, it makes sense if most combos are air corner. Against other characters though I'm delighted with 100% limit and continuation of pressure on ground, where 3k limiting combo might be landed with 3c tornado.
> Use it during every knockdown and at the end of the round you'll have enough stocks for 421C to turn into a win condition if opponent ever blocks it in the corner.That's where I have problem with it, you need enemy's compliance for it to work. But with such compliance lots of stuff become effective down to blocked j.2B reset.
While writing this post though I realized that pebbles actually might have use even if not blocked - they come from above and not too many characters have bullet coverage from this side, so at least I can force a graze, or even better a hit while enemy setups frontal bullet cover, so it's worth giving a retry in the end.
My deckonomics will be in disaster though, I equally don't want to lose anything from current deck…
No.2820
>>2819>I replaced all gust fans with 1c/2c, having full load of each, and they work as oki (though I thought of using 1c as oki only this moment lol) and spirit breaking well. Dragon star with its superarmour is the one I gotta investigate. Maybe it was the key to not learning neutral all this time…I don't think 1sc is useful on oki at all. It has lengthy startup, you won't be able to jump to chase techs and it will only push your opponent out of range midscreen anyways. I encourage you a look at catfish as well, any ender that lets Aya setup 2B also lets her setup catfish and do hj7 jA to chase techs. I don't know how to deal with no tech, but if you manage to land jA against it you'll get a guaranteed wrongblock because you hit both way at the same time. I think it's reasonably strong if you learn how to set it up.
>I tried it in my anti-frog deck, it makes sense if most combos are air corner. Against other characters though I'm delighted with 100% limit and continuation of pressure on ground, where 3k limiting combo might be landed with 3c tornado.I think it at least worth to bring a single macroburst to ensure that you have an option to deal big damage from an aerial starter to close out a round when you'll need it. Aya gets aerial hits more often than not as well, so that's more damage on average if you're willing to spend meter.
>But with such compliance lots of stuff become effective down to blocked j.2B resetTo be fair, Aya pressure in general relies on the fact that opponent respects her staggers and lets her reset enough to get a crush with meter. It's not that hard to sneak in a jA j421C land cancel or a f5A 421C during the pressure. Video is lv2 pebbles with 5 stocks, and it already deals enough spirit damage for you to get a crush with meter.
No.2821
>>2820> It has lengthy startup17f is like Aya's 6A, not fatally slow.
> you won't be able to jump to chase techsNot in case of aerial activation.
> and it will only push your opponent out of range midscreen anyways.Or safely closer to the corner combined with dashes.
It's all theory for now, practice will really tell.
> I encourage you a look at catfish as well, any ender that lets Aya setup 2B also lets her setup catfish and do hj7 jA to chase techs. I don't know how to deal with no tech, but if you manage to land jA against it you'll get a guaranteed wrongblock because you hit both way at the same time. I think it's reasonably strong if you learn how to set it up.I did try it, but then again opportunity cost of one card for Aya is 1c, which can give up to 3 spirit damage in corner, while catfish gives at most 2 and is rather unstable.
> I think it at least worth to bring a single macroburst to ensure that you have an option to deal big damage from an aerial starter to close out a round when you'll need it. Aya gets aerial hits more often than not as well, so that's more damage on average if you're willing to spend meter.I bring one 3sc dash for this purpose instead, as it works in much more frequent and otherwise disappointing far from corner j.5A->j.6A->2C sequences
though I always forget to use it even when I have it, which with 3c dash result in around same damage as corner combo with macroburst.
> To be fair, Aya pressure in general relies on the fact that opponent respects her staggers and lets her reset enough to get a crush with meter.Not really, Aya can almost guarantee a crush with 1c+2c and proper followups, provided opponent won't BE perfectly. Though early BE isn't too unfavourable outcome either as it just saves up cards and weakens opponent for free.
> It's not that hard to sneak in a jA j421C land cancel or a f5A 421C during the pressure.You say that, but for me "not that hard" line is to input 421 with >50% success rate outside of combat. Inputting it during pressure/combos is almost impossible, and I tried a lot to confirm Yuyu's j.8A into 421C to no avail, not even mentioning landcancels. Maybe it will cure with time, but for now I have to work around my disability.
No.2822
Anyways, soku gaming?
No.2823
soku?
No.2824
>>2823Hop on 5.16.30.113:10800 with giuroll!
No.2825
>>2824GGs, thanks for the games. Tengu drum encourages the most boring neutral possible, the only consistent and safe way to fight it that I know of is to have bullets covering you at all times.
No.2826
>>2825Ggs! Don't know about you, but for me every fullscreen tengu drum is a thriller on every step from startup to the ground, calculating correct trajectory and adjusting it with enemy's movement to preferably crossup, and in worst case safely retreat isn't that easy of a task.
> the only consistent and safe way to fight it that I know of is to have bullets covering you at all timesYou just gotta react to it, while it does travel fast it still is much slower than bullets from any position unless you're stuck in some lengthy animation. Simplest thing which most do when see me in air on the other side of screen is 6B. You can also just dash in either direction, low lvl tengu drums, especially in far-flying C version don't have much manoeuvrability.
No.2827
>>2826>Simplest thing which most do when see me in air on the other side of screen is 6BAnd that's the whole neutral against tengu drum Aya. By just having it in your deck you now force your opponent to play at your pace and focus on pressing 2B/5B over and over. Anti-airing with rising aerial melees is a much greater risk now, and even movement gets punished by it while Aya is relatively safe against characters that don't have great anti-air bullets. It's safe on whiff and has ambiguous trajectory, so every fullscreen tengu drum doesn't even have to hit as long as Aya can make it impossible to tell if it hits or whiffs. I think tengu drum just takes away a lot of the fun aspects of neutral and promotes spamming B bullets and not interacting with your opponent at all.
No.2828
soku
i'll be in wap lobby
No.2829
>>2827> And that's the whole neutral against tengu drum Aya. By just having it in your deck you now force your opponent to play at your pace and focus on pressing 2B/5B over and over.Thing is, you don't have to shoot preemptively, just whenever you hear "wshooh" and get easy ground to air combo from that.
> It's safe on whiffWell that's straight up not true, Aya has good landing recovery after a whiff and even you caught me up on that few times.
> and has ambiguous trajectory, so every fullscreen tengu drum doesn't even have to hit as long as Aya can make it impossible to tell if it hits or whiffsUnveiling trade secret here, even C version of tengu drum can't reach on fullscreen distance unless I accelerate from very start, and similarly I would whiff right in front of you to punish unless I start decelerating from very start. It's just matter of attentiveness.
No.2830
>>2829I just don't have good enough reaction time to hear the whoosh and call it out, and can't tell if tengu drum will hit or whiff at all. I may be overall too slow for this skill, or you may underestimate how difficult it is to react accordingly (since I assume you didn't have a chance to play against other tengu drum users).
>Well that's straight up not true, Aya has good landing recovery after a whiff and even you caught me up on that few times.Aya has 12F of recovery after the hitbox disappears unless I messed something up. It's straight up impossible for some characters to punish tengu drum that whiffed at f5a range unless they have some fast and disjointed move. Even the characters that have moves that can punish it can't punish it if they try reacting to a whiff, the input must be made right as Aya hitbox disappears (or before the hurtbox of the character extends into tengu drum's hitbox). That leaves only bullets (and maybe dash attacks) as a reliable way to punish a whiff, and I don't think many characters get a full combo from a stray bullet on the grounded opponent.
>Unveiling trade secret here, even C version of tengu drum can't reach on fullscreen distance unless I accelerate from very start, and similarly I would whiff right in front of you to punish unless I start decelerating from very start. It's just matter of attentiveness.I can't even tell the difference between accelerated high level tengu drum and the one without any inputs made while looking at Aya directly in practice mode. I don't think I'm going to notice it in a real match, I don't look directly at Aya's sprite in game anyways.
I still think that it encourages lame neutral and is borderline unpunishabe at times. It's just not fun when the only counterplay to a move is being afraid of it at all times.
No.2832
>>2831Do not do the last one. If you wish, I can play you and you can do all this today. Respond within thirty minutes, though.
No.2833
>>2832Not today, then. Have a good night!
No.2834
>>2832Sorry I'm incubating until tomorrow
>>2833u2
No.2835
>>2830> It's just not fun when the only counterplay to a move is being afraid of it at all times.You just DP and quite a few other moves. Can't argue with that as a DPhater myself, though Aya's bullshit move is still way tamer than others' stuff from this category.
No.2836
soku?
No.2837
soku
No.2838
>>2837soku!
84.10.221.254:10800
No.2840
>>2839ggs, yeah that final round finisher was bullshit lol
thanks for hosting
No.2841
soku
No.2842
Soku gaming in 20 minutes?
Also is it me or wapchan's appearance changed?
No.2843
>>284220 minutes works for me
No.2844
>>2843Hop on 5.165.190.196:10800 with giuroll!
No.2845
>>2843Ggs! Your Iku is rather daunting to play against as Aya, j.2A seems to be impossible to counter on ground, regular anti-air shooting isn't nearly fast enough if done on reaction.
That and the fact that we have few people with several mains made me thinking, are there any tourney rules about counterpicking? I'd really rather not play some matchups, but in theoretical case when opponent would also not want to play new matchup with their first-picked character we're sort of getting in weird loop.
No.2846
anyone else soku?
>>2845ggs
challenging her at that range is nigh impossible, she's just really hard to play if she has the space to move around and take full advantage of max range j2A. it's probably better to back out and try to approach her from above instead
>are there any tourney rules about counterpicking?the usual rule with character counterpicks is that the winner of the previous game has to choose their character first before the loser picks theirs. sometimes there's a character lock rule so the winner is forced to pick the same character till they lose a game. whether either of those rules is actually enforced or not, it's entirely up to the organizer
thanks for hosting
No.2847
Soku gaming?
No.2849
>>2848Hop on 5.16.31.68:10800 with giuroll!
No.2850
>>2849>>2849GGs, really good matches today, my new experiments seem to be working.
Also Tenko is STRONK, those drills live to their name.
No.2851
>>2850Ggs! Lagswitching from 60 to 120 feels even worse than playing on 150 at times, I wish there was some sort of setting to just pause the game during lagspikes instead of running it on 1/3 FPS.
> Also Tenko is STRONK, those drills live to their name.I wish they were good vs other bullets but they are doomed being a B bullet. Though can't really complain as Tenshi's C bullets are able to pierce through most stuff just fine.
Anyone else up for soku gaming?
No.2852
>>2851There was lag? I didn't feel it.
No.2853
>>285189.254.224.245:10800
No.2854
>>2852Yeah once in a while ping spiked to 120 for a second or two.
No.2855
>>2854I don't know if it was in my end but I apologize just in case.
No.2856
>>2853Shid, headphones died and crashed the game with them. Brb in like 15 minutes if you still will be up by then.
No.2857
>>2856Sure, join the same IP once you'll be ready.
No.2859
>>2856GGs, thanks for the games. Hectic matches, I'd even say some of them were a complete train wreck.
No.2861
>>2858HELL YEAH I CAN COME!
No.2862
soku?
No.2865
>>2864ggs
thanks for the games
No.2866
I found 2v2 soku mod build, but apparently only way to play it online is streaming stuff like parsec. Should we bother and try it or wait for when it gets proper netplay?
No.2867
>>2866depends if it's actively being worked on or not
No.2868
>>2867More no than yes, it was last updated half a year ago I think.
No.2869
>>2866Sure why not. As long as someone's willing to host/organize. Especially since connection quality might be quite region-dependent.
No.2871
>>2869>>2870Alright, I'll look into hosting it then. Desynchs shouldn't be possible, however ping is expected to be directly converted to delay frames, roughly 1 frame per 17ms. Seems tame enough inside Europe, as for America… We'll see.
No.2872
>>2871Works fine locally, but I'm not sure if game will see people's parsec inputs as different controllers, it would be nice to test it out with someone before we start.
Otherwise we should be good to go, only thing needed from other players is to grab
https://parsec.app/ and optionally catbox your profile so you won't need to rebuild them.
No.2873
>>2872> so you won't need to rebuild themYour decks I meant.
No.2874
soku?
No.2875
Soku gaming? 2v2 soku gaming even maybe?
No.2877
>>2876Hop on 5.16.31.68:10800 with giuroll!
No.2878
>>2876Ggs! There's probably only one thing I'm finally confident in soku, and that's my Alice killing skills. Aside from one player
which I want to think soon I will be victorious against as well Alice matchup is my most winnable by far.
No.2879
>>2878ggs, i was reminded today that Aya j5A truly is one of the hitboxes of all time
>Alice matchup is my most winnable by far.on the other hand she is probably my most inconsistent character, some days it feels like i could nearly win EVO with Alice and other days it feels like i just picked up a controller for the first time in my life
No.2881
>>2880>3A hitbox is hilariously tall for and anti-air.it's still shorter than a standing Marisa which is already a short character, not really too bad since many characters use standing anti-airs in this game
it was still at the very corner between both hitboxes though, but i can't see many other j5As beating 3A from that exact position
No.2884
>>2882they mostly lack the vertical displacement relative to the center to challenge 3A at that height, you would have to try a more horizontal approach but that's where 3A's hitbox starts so yeah, that will result in a trade at best. Marisa and Sakuya are at least close but still it's not at such a low angle
the hitbox size itself is average, it's the positioning that makes it an extremely oppressive air-to-air since very few moves can challenge it at the angle it hits you from, speed + active frames are just the cherry on top
No.2885
Soku gaming?
No.2889
soku
No.2890
2vs2 soku on friday?
https://strawpoll.com/e6Z2A3maXgN>>2889Hop on 5.16.29.81:10800 with giuroll!
No.2892
>>2891ggs
i mean coin is probably the strongest system card so it's not a bad idea. it's also one of the hardest to use properly though, and if you fuck up you just get corner raped even harder so be careful with that
thanks for hosting
No.2893
Soku gaming?
Also,
>>2890 one more sokunegro needed for 2vs2!
(I voted as well to test if VPN voting works, so poll will only be success with 4 voters) No.2894
soku now?
No.2895
>>2894Hop on 5.16.30.172:10800 with giuroll!
No.2897
>>2896Ggs! It's this time of the year again, my hands get frozen after tenth game. I wish there were socks for hands or something…
> I voted Yeah in the 2vs2 poll because I'm bad with timezones, may actually show up one hour later. I'll try to make it on time though.Welp we're still at 3/4 anyways so it's ok, anything between 15:00-19:00 GMT is good.
No.2898
soku
No.2901
>>2900ggs, thanks for hosting
No.2902
>>2890After some investigation (which I should've done earlier honestly), turns out setting up controls for 4 people in parsec is fucky after all.
Parsec only reads host's inputs, clients' inputs are converted to host's inputs if that makes sense. I only have one keyboard and one controller to serve as input retranslators. Theoretically two people could play on one keyboard, but they'd need to use different keys, e.g. ASDZXC+arrows and FGHVBN+numpad.
However, parsec seems to have an option to detect clients' gamepads and make fully virtual controllers out of them. So at least one person should play with gamepad, and ideally all clients should play with gamepads/make virtual gamepads out of their keyboards on their side with DS4Windows or whatever else.
2vs2soku must be VERY fun for such ordeals…
No.2903
>>2902i'm retarded and didn't check the timezone properly so I'll be a bit late, probably around 16:30 GMT
but also i can play on a separate controller if needed so that should help a bit
No.2904
>>2903As I previously said, anything between 15:00-19:00 GMT is okay.
Anyways, reply whenever at least someone is ready, I feel like today is going to be technical tinkering day.
No.2906
>>2905Alright, try connecting to
https://parsec.gg/g/332vnhGLvZzMGsmbOGg6AY08886/ca90fa47/ and let's see how many problems we'll meet exactly.
No.2907
>>2905Apparently chat doesn't work, tell me what you can see or if you can see anything at all.
No.2909
Tournament 9 tomorrow at noon (as previously announced)
>>2908 No.2911
>>2910Ok at least my dolphin porn folder is safe. Now, can you do anything in game window?
No.2912
>>2911Not at all. IIRC, soku doesn't recognize any controllers that weren't connected at the start of the game. Can you reset the game?
No.2913
>>2911Yes, I can't keyboard.
No.2914
Ok shadowfighting as 3 characters is an experience of all times fo sure, turns out it's much easier to setup that I thought it would be. Now can you try mapping keyboard too?
No.2916
>>2914Remapped keyboard keys don't work on the character select screen. It'll probably be fine in-game.
No.2917
>>2916Oh ok, try controlling player 4 yourself too then.
No.2918
Ok controls do interfere, let me rehost parsec and try mapping again.
No.2920
>>2904i'm free now, should i connect now or are you guys in the middle of some testing
No.2921
Alright, seems like making digital controller is enough, but for some reason keyconfig defaults after a restart.
>>2920Yeah you can join though we'd have 3 players in 4 player game, so someone would have to control 2 characters at once (or one hand per character lol). Before joining either plug a gamepad/make virtual controller out of your keyboard.
No.2922
>>2919Marisa played fine, but my gamepad was toast. Seems like the game needs resetting every time someone joins.
No.2923
>>2910Also forgot to ask, do you only see game window, or entire screen? And in what resolution?
No.2925
>>2924Welp there isn't an option to disable this panopticum apparently lol. And finally just in case, was my mic on all this time too?
No.2927
>>2926do you have the DPadFix module? i had to switch my stick from dpad to left stick mode to get the directional inputs to work, maybe that's messing with the other guy's controller now
No.2928
>>2926keyboard's not working for whatever reason but my controller does too
No.2929
>>2926my keyboard is still dead but my controller is working perfectly fine
No.2934
GGs, this went way better than expected. It was a chaotic mess, it was super fun, I can't wait to do it again. Hopefully with 4 players.
I may be tripping but the stream seemed laggier on some stages than others. May be good to try stages with less detailed backgrounds or without weather effects (SDM Foyer, Iku's stage?) At least something without foliage.
>>2933Thank you for finding and hosting this mod, it was a good time. Made me consider dualbooting w*ndows so I can host it myself if it takes off. I definitely hope it's not just a one time thing.
No.2935
>>2933ggs
>especially when Yukari/Patchy/Yuyuko/Okuu were on field. that Youmu vs Patchy/Yuyu has to be some of the most intense 250ms dodging i can remember, that was straight out of a mainline game. would have been incredible if we hadn't jobbed at the end
>In the end, should we wait for fourth player to appear and play it again in future, or it's one-timer for lols?maybe we can try tomorrow since there's probably gonna be more people at the tourney. would be cool if someone in a more convenient location could host too. also is there really no option to lower the resolution on parsec? bandwidth definitely seemed to be the issue, so if there was a way to optimize that i think the game should run seamlessly
anyways, thanks for hosting
>>2934>I may be tripping but the stream seemed laggier on some stages than othersyeah definitely, it was very apparent since there were absolutely no issues at all while we were hanging in the menus but as soon as shit started flying all over the screen the stutter would begin. if it was a connection problem we'd have frame drops at any time, so i'm guessing it's only happening because all the special effects are too much for the stream to handle currently
No.2936
>>2934> I may be tripping but the stream seemed laggier on some stages than others. May be good to try stages with less detailed backgrounds or without weather effects (SDM Foyer, Iku's stage?) At least something without foliage.This theory have chances to be true. I'm not expert in video encoding, but I think fast and major picture colour changes raise bitrate (probably) and 2K stream stops fitting into 25mbps per player bandwidth causing framedrops. If that's true then less detailed stages and characters with less bullethell will improve our situation. And getting fourth player will worsen it as bandwidth be 17mbps per player…
>>2935> also is there really no option to lower the resolution on parsec?It is set to "use client resolution" so I think you're supposed to get stream with resolution of your screen and not 2K, but I'm not sure if it did work like that. I'll try lowering my screen's resolution next time and see how better it will play.
No.2937
Almost forgot, here's the mod itself. It needs latest soku2 to be installed to work too. There also came tagfigher soku mod that I haven't tested yet, but it allow to pick two characters and switch them during the fight. Though it also is marked as 4P so I'm not entirely sure if that's all to it.
https://files.catbox.moe/fkussx.zip No.2938
Any footage from this mess?
No.2940
>>2938I had OBS on at the start and thought that recorded few moments, but at some point I accidentally turned replay buffer off by hitting hotkey that I forgot I had, so I in fact recorded nothing. Don't miss today's after-tourney 2vs2 soku, though depending on amount of time tourney takes and my sleepiness it'll be shorter unless someone retakes the hosting.